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Podcast with Faisal Shah - CEO of Dark Star Quantum Labs
My guest today is Faisal Khan, an academic researcher turned CEO of Dark Star Quantum Lab. Faisal and I discuss random numbers as a service, water conservation using quantum technology, the competitive quantum gaps in the US and much more.
Listen to additional episodes by selecting 'podcasts' on our Insights page
The full transcript is below
Yuval: Hello. Faisal and thanks for joining me today.
Faisal: Hello, Yuval. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Yuval: So who are you and what do you do?
Faisal: My full name is Faisal Shah Khan. I am the Interim CEO of a startup company in the quantum ecosystem. The company's name is Dark Star Quantum Lab. Prior to that, I was an academic actually. I was working in the academic field for about 10 years and I was in Abu Dhabi at that time. I am back in the US now leading this company towards product roadmaps and providing some thought leadership in terms of where quantum technology is today as they're available commercially, where they can be applied and what benefit can be gained.
Yuval: Is there a particular area that Dark Star focuses on? By the way, where does Dark Star come from?
Faisal: Ah, yes, that's a question we've been asked several times. So the information I have on that is that the co-founder of Dark Star, is David Wilkinson, came up with this name and that he was motivated just by black holes. Dark star is just another name for a black hole. Now, after the fact I've been informed that apparently there's a song by Beatles or some group around about that time period, a song that's titled Dark Star. And apparently there's also a science fiction movie from the '80s, if I remember correctly, also by the same title. We picked up on something that's obviously a cultural phenomenon and we hope that's going to happen with our company as well (that is becomes a cultural phenomenon).
Yuval: So, sorry for the detour, but just going back to where I started the question, what does Dark Star focus on? Is there a particular field or vertical that you focus on?
Faisal: Certainly. I like to call our focus as being the two-stroke engine of quantum technology. The two strokes are basically fundamental principles or features of quantum mechanics, quantum physics itself. The first stroke is quantum randomness, which is unique to the quantum realm, created by quantum objects like photons, electrons, etcetera, in the right circumstances. This is something that cannot be sourced in what we call the classical world. So that is something Dark Star's focused on. There are several companies already out there in the quantum technology ecosystem who offer this technology commercially. Our focus in this area is where we can apply them. We're basically looking for killer applications. Certainly, information security is one of them, but the gaming or gambling industry is another.
And the question becomes, how do you utilize this cleverly and create a market edge. So that's what Dark Star is focused on there. The second stroke is of course, quantum computing, which is based on the features of quantum entanglement from quantum physics. And that is something we have big players involved in, developing hardware. And our focus is primarily on software plus consulting, so to speak, in terms of where we can apply this technology as it appears today, commercially.
Yuval: So let's start with the first. So you mentioned the randomness, is that what's being called random number as a service.
Faisal: I have not heard that term, but I think that's probably what it is.
Yuval: So, if I'm a customer, I pay you a thousand bucks and in return I get X number of random numbers. Is that the business model?
Faisal: I think the business model certainly can be that, but based on my experience probably won't be a very good business model primarily because several universities offer that service for free and you can go to a website and just source that quantum randomness from there for free. I think the business model here is finding the killer application. For instance, information security is a killer application. And people are using it in that context, besides information security for the government, for example, or banks.
Where else can somebody go out and say, I can create some value out of this thing? So one thing that comes to my mind that Dark Star's focusing on is trading, the markets. So you could say if you want to do high-frequency trading for instance. Because large number of large sums of money are exchanged in this setting. You want to have really good security. The security that people want to have is what’s called provable security, and security which has the capacity to detect intrusion in real-time. And that's something that quantum random number generators when put together appropriately under the right protocols can offer, can provide.
Yuval: Understood. And let's switch gears to the second thing. The quantum computing side. I read I think just today on LinkedIn, about some water project, water optimization project. Could you tell me a little bit about that, please?
Faisal: I'll be very happy to Yuval. This is something Dark Star is involved in. I have been involved in this in my previous incarnation as an academic when I was working in Abu Dhabi, in the middle east as part of the Arabian Peninsula. Water, freshwater, drinking water, is scarce. Now of course those countries are quite rich. So what they do is desalinate water from the Arabian Gulf. And so that's something they can afford. Now, the thing about desalination from ocean water is that it's expensive and it's actually environmentally very unfriendly. And so the question becomes, can quantum computing help with that? Now, quantum computing, in the proper sense, the ones that we are looking for in the next 5 to 10 years could give great insights into chemistry to the extent where you can say that perhaps we can come up with a minimum energy regime of some kind that tells us how to separate molecules of water and salt in a way that's environmentally less impactful. And certainly has a less carbon footprint.
So this is something that's under study. This is something I was studying five years ago as an academic as well. The project was called quantum computing the salt out of seawater. So one day hopefully we'll be able to do that, so we'll be in a position to do that. But coming back to your question about what you read on LinkedIn, this is something more immediate, actually. This is something we can do today. Using the commercially available quantum computing platforms, two come to mind immediately, which are, in my opinion, quite useful. One is quantum annealing. The other is digital annealing which is kind of one step lower in some sense than quantum annealing, but in some capacities, it can be better performing. And this is my opinion, based on a couple of projects I was involved in dealing with each of these technologies, quantum computing technologies.
Now with respect to the water crisis, freshwater, drinking water crisis, that's already actually happening in the world in many communities. In a conversation with one of the panel members who will be appearing on this talk that we'll have on July 30th, (She is in Tunisia right now). And she was sharing some information about how certain cities, in Tunisia, suffer from water shortages, and her observation after talking to engineers was that most of this is based on mismanagement. There is a shortage in general. You have like 98 inches of rain on average in North Africa spanned over five different countries over the Sahara desert. But besides that, it's a matter of management and not so much mismanagement, but suboptimal management constrained by technology.
What technology we have today for computing supplies water back and forth to different communities. And so to this end, we're working on trying to figure it out, how to model these water supply chain problems in different parts of the world, given the constraints that have around them and see how quantum computers as they're available commercially today, offer an advantage, some kind of an optimization of this process of management that can benefit communities. There should be hopefully a way to minimize the shortage, if not completely eliminate it.
Yuval: How large of a quantum computer do you need to do a good enough job in data optimization? Today, quantum computers, a couple of dozen qubits, is that enough? Or are banking on the next generation of hardware?
Faisal: So the way quantum computing is available commercially, there are three models that are available commercially. One of them was quantum annealing. The other was digital annealing which is just sort of semi quantum one could say, not really properly quantum. And the third is gate Level quantum computing. Gate Level quantum computing is quite basic currently. This kind of technology is limited to say, I think 72 qubits is the last number I remember from Google, I believe. IonQ might have a 50 qubit. On the other hand, quantum annealing, which is primarily offered by D-Wave, which is a Canadian company, they have a 4,000-qubit quantum computer or quantum processor.
Now just having many qubits doesn't immediately mean that you have a better performance. There are issues with both quantum annealing and gate-level quantum computing hardware. It's just been my experience that quantum annealing is able to tackle the size of the problem better. So a problem like managing water distribution, and in places where there are shortages, is a pretty substantial-sized problem. So one imagines that you would be using something like a digital annealer or a quantum annealer for that. And that's something we can do today. So it's not necessarily something that I'm thinking of 10 years from now, 5 years from now. My goal is to do it today with what's available. And at least start the process and see what happens.
Yuval: And then the benefits are let's reduce the water waste, get more water to the people that need it and maybe spend less money on desalination. Is that about right?
Faisal: Exactly. I should mention that because of climate change, there are communities, countries, in fact, around the world that are on the brink of disaster in terms of extinction if you think about it. My favorite example of course is Pakistan, where I'm originally from, which has five rivers running through it. And they're all based on the Himalayan glaciers which are predicted to be gone in the next 50 to 100 years. So you're looking at at least 250 million people, 50 years from now, who will have to leave that part of the world or adapt dramatically. So what kind of a crisis would that create for the whole planet? So with that in mind, I think it's very important to sort of look at the best way to optimize the use of water and so for example, in Tunisia when I was talking to Saher, the panelist we'll be talking to. She mentioned that there's a lot of fossil water, as they say, underneath the sands of the North African deserts.
And it's really a strategic reserve for these countries, but when they mismanage water distribution, as they get water from rainfall, people end up drilling into the strategic reserve and that's just mismanagement and a crisis in the making. So going back to your question, yes, these are the things we would like to see mitigated based on this new technology of quantum computing.
Yuval: Amazing. So if you ever get tired of Dark Star, maybe Green Quantum is the new name for the company.
Faisal: Well, certainly. We'll rename it Green Dark Star. Exactly.
Yuval: Green and Dark, very good. As you look at your consulting clients and the interest that you're getting from around the world, is there a particular industry, government or supply chain, or finance that stands out with a thirst for quantum these days?
Faisal: So here's how I think I should start addressing your question. Typically, it's been my experience when I was growing up as a much younger person in the world, that North America was leading pretty much in everything technological. And certainly, it was the case back in the '80s, '90s, 2000s, and even in this previous decade. But my understanding today is that when it comes to quantum technology, North America is quite behind. And it would be nice if it actually jumps into this quantum game, if you want to call it, early enough to actually set the rules and then kind of gain an advantage. Now, even though if it's a little bit behind, from my point of view, I still have faith in the system because I think once you galvanize enough government resources, for example, that happened recently, the Senate passed a $200 billion bill with, I think, a $50 billion plus allocated to quantum computing technologies or quantum technologies in general.
So certainly, there's this market here where the attitude is still what we like to call the American way of doing things. There's a vision that can be exploited for new technologies. And I think you'll find plenty of investors all across the government segments, as well as the market, finance for example. So certainly that's one thing Dark Star is clearly focused on. Department of Defense, ideally if possible, but the defense and space industry, in particular, is something that we're focusing on. On the other side, finance comes to mind and there's a whole area of FinTech that's kind of popular because it's practically useful. So certainly FinTech, as it relates to say for example, in New York. Another place that comes to my mind, having lived there for a decade is Abu Dhabi, which has recently set up a FinTech regulatory body in Abu Dhabi. It's called Abu Dhabi Global Markets.
These are people who had shown express interest in quantum technologies at one stage when I was there. So, that's certainly an area of interest. And of course, China is spending a lot of money developing parts of Central Asia, South Asia, even the Middle East. They have projects in Iran and the east coast of Africa. And the project that comes to mind is this mega project, which is, I think, expected to be around $4 trillion in its ultimate budget that will get spent on it. And it consists of basically creating a supply chain, taking Chinese goods to Africa, to the Middle East, and Europe, ultimately, in a way that's as cheap as possible. So with a budget like that and you have a new emerging technology, which has been proven in the lab, and even practical use cases have been shown. And this is, of course, quantum annealing I'm thinking of, with respect to quantum computing, this would be an area which is just sitting there for somebody to go in and say, hey, what can we do for you right then? And galvanize this community there to start allocating funding and creating business values.
Yuval: So, if you were advising US policymakers on closing that gap, as you've presented, would it be government investment? Would it be setting up additional research? Is it venture capital that's missing or is it entrepreneurship? What do you think is the key to closing that gap that you're describing?
Faisal: I'm going to bring up my favorite historian here. He is an Israeli historian. He has the same name as yours. Yuval Noah Harari. Perhaps you know of him and his books were quite popular, still are, there was a series of them. One of them is called Homo Deus A History of Tomorrow. And he talks about how the knowledge economy that has been created in several parts of the world today, has actually mitigated warfare. And created opportunity and value to an extent where warfare becomes more expensive than collaboration and peaceful coexistence. And so I think I would start by saying a quantum knowledge economy is needed.
There's some investment from the government. I guess the word investment is the right one where it actually does a lot more compared to what it has done so far, in putting money into universities and national labs to create a sense of excitement and provide the information, create informed users and a human resource which can understand what the impact of quantum technology can be, even today. It's already happening.
That would be nice. On the other hand, perhaps the right way to proceed is to kind of see if we can bring about the personal computing revolution. Which didn't happen from a government point of view, was a purely private investment and entrepreneurship, as you said, that produced it, and eventually created this huge economy that we're living in today. This is something actually we try to motivate and support at Dark Star. Our heroes are Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs. The idea is to have a garage model where we take what's available right now, provide creative thought leadership, put things together in a creative way and create some kind of value. So maybe that's the right way forward. But like many things, perhaps it's a matter of combining everything and sort of seeing what comes out of it. So I suppose I would say let's do all of it. Why just limit ourselves?
Yuval: Very good. So, Faisal, I could keep talking to you for a long time, but I know we have to go. So for those who want to connect with you and learn more about your work, what's the best way to do so.
Faisal: My email is probably where I can be approached most easily. It is quantumsheikh@gmail.com. It's the best place to reach out to me and please do. Everybody's welcome to do so.
Yuval: Excellent. Faisal, thank you very much for joining me today.
Faisal: Thank you so much, Yuval, for this opportunity, a pleasure talking to you.
My guest today is Faisal Khan, an academic researcher turned CEO of Dark Star Quantum Lab. Faisal and I discuss random numbers as a service, water conservation using quantum technology, the competitive quantum gaps in the US and much more.
Listen to additional episodes by selecting 'podcasts' on our Insights page
The full transcript is below
Yuval: Hello. Faisal and thanks for joining me today.
Faisal: Hello, Yuval. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Yuval: So who are you and what do you do?
Faisal: My full name is Faisal Shah Khan. I am the Interim CEO of a startup company in the quantum ecosystem. The company's name is Dark Star Quantum Lab. Prior to that, I was an academic actually. I was working in the academic field for about 10 years and I was in Abu Dhabi at that time. I am back in the US now leading this company towards product roadmaps and providing some thought leadership in terms of where quantum technology is today as they're available commercially, where they can be applied and what benefit can be gained.
Yuval: Is there a particular area that Dark Star focuses on? By the way, where does Dark Star come from?
Faisal: Ah, yes, that's a question we've been asked several times. So the information I have on that is that the co-founder of Dark Star, is David Wilkinson, came up with this name and that he was motivated just by black holes. Dark star is just another name for a black hole. Now, after the fact I've been informed that apparently there's a song by Beatles or some group around about that time period, a song that's titled Dark Star. And apparently there's also a science fiction movie from the '80s, if I remember correctly, also by the same title. We picked up on something that's obviously a cultural phenomenon and we hope that's going to happen with our company as well (that is becomes a cultural phenomenon).
Yuval: So, sorry for the detour, but just going back to where I started the question, what does Dark Star focus on? Is there a particular field or vertical that you focus on?
Faisal: Certainly. I like to call our focus as being the two-stroke engine of quantum technology. The two strokes are basically fundamental principles or features of quantum mechanics, quantum physics itself. The first stroke is quantum randomness, which is unique to the quantum realm, created by quantum objects like photons, electrons, etcetera, in the right circumstances. This is something that cannot be sourced in what we call the classical world. So that is something Dark Star's focused on. There are several companies already out there in the quantum technology ecosystem who offer this technology commercially. Our focus in this area is where we can apply them. We're basically looking for killer applications. Certainly, information security is one of them, but the gaming or gambling industry is another.
And the question becomes, how do you utilize this cleverly and create a market edge. So that's what Dark Star is focused on there. The second stroke is of course, quantum computing, which is based on the features of quantum entanglement from quantum physics. And that is something we have big players involved in, developing hardware. And our focus is primarily on software plus consulting, so to speak, in terms of where we can apply this technology as it appears today, commercially.
Yuval: So let's start with the first. So you mentioned the randomness, is that what's being called random number as a service.
Faisal: I have not heard that term, but I think that's probably what it is.
Yuval: So, if I'm a customer, I pay you a thousand bucks and in return I get X number of random numbers. Is that the business model?
Faisal: I think the business model certainly can be that, but based on my experience probably won't be a very good business model primarily because several universities offer that service for free and you can go to a website and just source that quantum randomness from there for free. I think the business model here is finding the killer application. For instance, information security is a killer application. And people are using it in that context, besides information security for the government, for example, or banks.
Where else can somebody go out and say, I can create some value out of this thing? So one thing that comes to my mind that Dark Star's focusing on is trading, the markets. So you could say if you want to do high-frequency trading for instance. Because large number of large sums of money are exchanged in this setting. You want to have really good security. The security that people want to have is what’s called provable security, and security which has the capacity to detect intrusion in real-time. And that's something that quantum random number generators when put together appropriately under the right protocols can offer, can provide.
Yuval: Understood. And let's switch gears to the second thing. The quantum computing side. I read I think just today on LinkedIn, about some water project, water optimization project. Could you tell me a little bit about that, please?
Faisal: I'll be very happy to Yuval. This is something Dark Star is involved in. I have been involved in this in my previous incarnation as an academic when I was working in Abu Dhabi, in the middle east as part of the Arabian Peninsula. Water, freshwater, drinking water, is scarce. Now of course those countries are quite rich. So what they do is desalinate water from the Arabian Gulf. And so that's something they can afford. Now, the thing about desalination from ocean water is that it's expensive and it's actually environmentally very unfriendly. And so the question becomes, can quantum computing help with that? Now, quantum computing, in the proper sense, the ones that we are looking for in the next 5 to 10 years could give great insights into chemistry to the extent where you can say that perhaps we can come up with a minimum energy regime of some kind that tells us how to separate molecules of water and salt in a way that's environmentally less impactful. And certainly has a less carbon footprint.
So this is something that's under study. This is something I was studying five years ago as an academic as well. The project was called quantum computing the salt out of seawater. So one day hopefully we'll be able to do that, so we'll be in a position to do that. But coming back to your question about what you read on LinkedIn, this is something more immediate, actually. This is something we can do today. Using the commercially available quantum computing platforms, two come to mind immediately, which are, in my opinion, quite useful. One is quantum annealing. The other is digital annealing which is kind of one step lower in some sense than quantum annealing, but in some capacities, it can be better performing. And this is my opinion, based on a couple of projects I was involved in dealing with each of these technologies, quantum computing technologies.
Now with respect to the water crisis, freshwater, drinking water crisis, that's already actually happening in the world in many communities. In a conversation with one of the panel members who will be appearing on this talk that we'll have on July 30th, (She is in Tunisia right now). And she was sharing some information about how certain cities, in Tunisia, suffer from water shortages, and her observation after talking to engineers was that most of this is based on mismanagement. There is a shortage in general. You have like 98 inches of rain on average in North Africa spanned over five different countries over the Sahara desert. But besides that, it's a matter of management and not so much mismanagement, but suboptimal management constrained by technology.
What technology we have today for computing supplies water back and forth to different communities. And so to this end, we're working on trying to figure it out, how to model these water supply chain problems in different parts of the world, given the constraints that have around them and see how quantum computers as they're available commercially today, offer an advantage, some kind of an optimization of this process of management that can benefit communities. There should be hopefully a way to minimize the shortage, if not completely eliminate it.
Yuval: How large of a quantum computer do you need to do a good enough job in data optimization? Today, quantum computers, a couple of dozen qubits, is that enough? Or are banking on the next generation of hardware?
Faisal: So the way quantum computing is available commercially, there are three models that are available commercially. One of them was quantum annealing. The other was digital annealing which is just sort of semi quantum one could say, not really properly quantum. And the third is gate Level quantum computing. Gate Level quantum computing is quite basic currently. This kind of technology is limited to say, I think 72 qubits is the last number I remember from Google, I believe. IonQ might have a 50 qubit. On the other hand, quantum annealing, which is primarily offered by D-Wave, which is a Canadian company, they have a 4,000-qubit quantum computer or quantum processor.
Now just having many qubits doesn't immediately mean that you have a better performance. There are issues with both quantum annealing and gate-level quantum computing hardware. It's just been my experience that quantum annealing is able to tackle the size of the problem better. So a problem like managing water distribution, and in places where there are shortages, is a pretty substantial-sized problem. So one imagines that you would be using something like a digital annealer or a quantum annealer for that. And that's something we can do today. So it's not necessarily something that I'm thinking of 10 years from now, 5 years from now. My goal is to do it today with what's available. And at least start the process and see what happens.
Yuval: And then the benefits are let's reduce the water waste, get more water to the people that need it and maybe spend less money on desalination. Is that about right?
Faisal: Exactly. I should mention that because of climate change, there are communities, countries, in fact, around the world that are on the brink of disaster in terms of extinction if you think about it. My favorite example of course is Pakistan, where I'm originally from, which has five rivers running through it. And they're all based on the Himalayan glaciers which are predicted to be gone in the next 50 to 100 years. So you're looking at at least 250 million people, 50 years from now, who will have to leave that part of the world or adapt dramatically. So what kind of a crisis would that create for the whole planet? So with that in mind, I think it's very important to sort of look at the best way to optimize the use of water and so for example, in Tunisia when I was talking to Saher, the panelist we'll be talking to. She mentioned that there's a lot of fossil water, as they say, underneath the sands of the North African deserts.
And it's really a strategic reserve for these countries, but when they mismanage water distribution, as they get water from rainfall, people end up drilling into the strategic reserve and that's just mismanagement and a crisis in the making. So going back to your question, yes, these are the things we would like to see mitigated based on this new technology of quantum computing.
Yuval: Amazing. So if you ever get tired of Dark Star, maybe Green Quantum is the new name for the company.
Faisal: Well, certainly. We'll rename it Green Dark Star. Exactly.
Yuval: Green and Dark, very good. As you look at your consulting clients and the interest that you're getting from around the world, is there a particular industry, government or supply chain, or finance that stands out with a thirst for quantum these days?
Faisal: So here's how I think I should start addressing your question. Typically, it's been my experience when I was growing up as a much younger person in the world, that North America was leading pretty much in everything technological. And certainly, it was the case back in the '80s, '90s, 2000s, and even in this previous decade. But my understanding today is that when it comes to quantum technology, North America is quite behind. And it would be nice if it actually jumps into this quantum game, if you want to call it, early enough to actually set the rules and then kind of gain an advantage. Now, even though if it's a little bit behind, from my point of view, I still have faith in the system because I think once you galvanize enough government resources, for example, that happened recently, the Senate passed a $200 billion bill with, I think, a $50 billion plus allocated to quantum computing technologies or quantum technologies in general.
So certainly, there's this market here where the attitude is still what we like to call the American way of doing things. There's a vision that can be exploited for new technologies. And I think you'll find plenty of investors all across the government segments, as well as the market, finance for example. So certainly that's one thing Dark Star is clearly focused on. Department of Defense, ideally if possible, but the defense and space industry, in particular, is something that we're focusing on. On the other side, finance comes to mind and there's a whole area of FinTech that's kind of popular because it's practically useful. So certainly FinTech, as it relates to say for example, in New York. Another place that comes to my mind, having lived there for a decade is Abu Dhabi, which has recently set up a FinTech regulatory body in Abu Dhabi. It's called Abu Dhabi Global Markets.
These are people who had shown express interest in quantum technologies at one stage when I was there. So, that's certainly an area of interest. And of course, China is spending a lot of money developing parts of Central Asia, South Asia, even the Middle East. They have projects in Iran and the east coast of Africa. And the project that comes to mind is this mega project, which is, I think, expected to be around $4 trillion in its ultimate budget that will get spent on it. And it consists of basically creating a supply chain, taking Chinese goods to Africa, to the Middle East, and Europe, ultimately, in a way that's as cheap as possible. So with a budget like that and you have a new emerging technology, which has been proven in the lab, and even practical use cases have been shown. And this is, of course, quantum annealing I'm thinking of, with respect to quantum computing, this would be an area which is just sitting there for somebody to go in and say, hey, what can we do for you right then? And galvanize this community there to start allocating funding and creating business values.
Yuval: So, if you were advising US policymakers on closing that gap, as you've presented, would it be government investment? Would it be setting up additional research? Is it venture capital that's missing or is it entrepreneurship? What do you think is the key to closing that gap that you're describing?
Faisal: I'm going to bring up my favorite historian here. He is an Israeli historian. He has the same name as yours. Yuval Noah Harari. Perhaps you know of him and his books were quite popular, still are, there was a series of them. One of them is called Homo Deus A History of Tomorrow. And he talks about how the knowledge economy that has been created in several parts of the world today, has actually mitigated warfare. And created opportunity and value to an extent where warfare becomes more expensive than collaboration and peaceful coexistence. And so I think I would start by saying a quantum knowledge economy is needed.
There's some investment from the government. I guess the word investment is the right one where it actually does a lot more compared to what it has done so far, in putting money into universities and national labs to create a sense of excitement and provide the information, create informed users and a human resource which can understand what the impact of quantum technology can be, even today. It's already happening.
That would be nice. On the other hand, perhaps the right way to proceed is to kind of see if we can bring about the personal computing revolution. Which didn't happen from a government point of view, was a purely private investment and entrepreneurship, as you said, that produced it, and eventually created this huge economy that we're living in today. This is something actually we try to motivate and support at Dark Star. Our heroes are Bill Gates and Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs. The idea is to have a garage model where we take what's available right now, provide creative thought leadership, put things together in a creative way and create some kind of value. So maybe that's the right way forward. But like many things, perhaps it's a matter of combining everything and sort of seeing what comes out of it. So I suppose I would say let's do all of it. Why just limit ourselves?
Yuval: Very good. So, Faisal, I could keep talking to you for a long time, but I know we have to go. So for those who want to connect with you and learn more about your work, what's the best way to do so.
Faisal: My email is probably where I can be approached most easily. It is quantumsheikh@gmail.com. It's the best place to reach out to me and please do. Everybody's welcome to do so.
Yuval: Excellent. Faisal, thank you very much for joining me today.
Faisal: Thank you so much, Yuval, for this opportunity, a pleasure talking to you.
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